On Being the Eldest Asian Introvert Daughter | Jennifer Ho | 107

A conversation with Jennifer about being an introvert, the eldest daughter and ways to be an introvert that can reach for what they want while still staying true to themselves without compromising on their boundaries and happiness. 

Bio:
 Jennifer Ho is a life coach who helps introverts start their personal rebellion. Her clients all have one thing in common: they're tired of keeping quiet. She has helped them hone the skill of self leadership and raise their hands to speak at conferences like SXSW, pivot from parent-approved and conventional careers to creative and entrepreneurial pursuits, and advocate for themselves both professionally and personally. With a coaching style her clients call "KonMari for the mind," Jennifer helps clients declutter all the noise in their brains and uncover what truly matters to them. While calm and grounded, she brings a fierce and infectious energy to her work, leading by example to show that anyone - especially introverts - can honor their nature while creating their dream life. 

Connect with Jennifer

• Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://byjenniferho.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 
• Ask An Introvert Podcast: https://byjenniferho.com/podcast 
• Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/byjenniferho/ 
• LinkedIn: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/byjenniferho/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

I'm like... doesn't it take up more energy for you to pretend to be an extrovert rather than just straight up say, I'm introverted? Not like as an excuse in case like you're too quiet or you don't have anything to say, but like, this is how I am in the world. And that part came more naturally to me. There have been times when I've also felt like I had to pretend to be more extroverted, but knowing that this is my own truth, I don't see the point in trying to change that because when I accept it, I can be more more efficient with my energy.

SPEAKER_00: 0:32

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of What Kind of Asian Are You podcast. I'm your host, Kyle. This is a podcast featuring conversations about being Asian. And if you want to support us, just keep listening to this episode and also check out our catalog. We have other episodes as well, featuring other awesome Asians. And make sure to also subscribe to us wherever you listen to our podcast and follow us on Instagram at What Kind of Asian Pod, where we will have your updates, your clips, all that fun stuff. And Today's guest is someone that I've been following, been seeing their content, learning a lot from it. Today, we have Jennifer Ho on the podcast. Hi, Jennifer. How are you doing today?

SPEAKER_01: 1:10

Hi, Kyle. I'm doing really awesome today.

SPEAKER_00: 1:12

Perfect. I'm so happy to have you on here to talk about your life, your story, and your expertise because it's something that I really resonate with a lot as well. I just wanted to have the audience know more about you in terms of life, your story, and what you do, what you're all about, and most importantly, what kind of Asian are you?

SPEAKER_01: 1:30

Okay, so where should I start? I like to introduce myself as a Vietnamese American, introvert, and eldest daughter. I prefer not to start with career because I think oftentimes we focus on that so much we forget about who we are beyond that. But that said, I am a life coach for introverts, and I essentially help introverts live the life that they actually want to live, not the one that's prescribed by rules. Dominant society obviously prefers extroverts. And I know a lot of introverts and especially Asian introverts grow up feeling like we need to be that model, follow the extrovert model. At the same time, our parents tell us like, oh, you're not supposed to be in the spotlight. So it's like one of those more nuanced identity paradoxes.

SPEAKER_00: 2:20

You mentioned like you're a Vietnamese American, you're the eldest daughter, which I think we hear this a lot now and especially in the Asian community. For those who aren't aware of it, Can you just describe in your words what is considered the eldest daughter and why is that important to you?

SPEAKER_01: 2:35

Yeah, so the eldest daughter might not be the eldest child in a family. But in my case, I am the eldest daughter and the eldest child. I have two younger sisters. And especially growing up in the U.S., in California specifically, I always felt the pressure to not only be a role model to my sisters, but also a parent to them. And what I realized in adulthood is in many ways, I also had two parents. my parents because they didn't necessarily assimilate to American culture, even though that's what they wanted for us. So at the age of like 12, I had access to all their bank accounts and important information because, and I'm sure many, many Asian Americans relate to this, but I was literally on the phone acting as them so that I can get access to the right customer service or whatever, whether it's to contest a bill or figure out what this tax notice is about. And so that kind of pressure and and responsibility, I think, is unique to the eldest daughter. Because even though it's like we're in the 2020s now, there is still a preference in Asian culture to have a male child, a son at some point, ideally a firstborn son, because then they know that it continues their family line or their lineage and so on. And I think it this pressure and responsibility is unique to the eldest daughter because from a young age, I remember going to these fun weddings and whatnot with my parents. But like everybody would ask, oh, when are you going to try for a son? And it's just like another way of being told you're not enough. And so it's like not only doing these things that really should be left for adults to do, but you start to have this need to prove yourself. And that's how I felt. And I think all these tidbits and experiences are unique to eldest daughters.

SPEAKER_00: 4:30

That's interesting to hear. I relate to certain points of where like you have to be the person to take care of certain things administrative stuff logistics stuff especially if it's for your parents where they did not insulate completely or like the language is still a barrier for them so i could feel that added on responsibility that you did not anticipate for nor was completely ready for at that time and that being said it seemed like you left like a mark on you in terms of who you are now as a person but you mentioned what it was like being that eldest daughter in the family dynamic but Does that also carry over to how you live day to day in the outside world and all that stuff and leading to how you are at workplace and with friends and apprentices? Can you talk about that piece?

SPEAKER_01: 5:16

Yeah, I think so. I think especially, you know, if we're talking about the difference between daughters and sons, basically we're talking about differences in gender and how we're each treated, right? And... I think the independent boss babe, an eldest daughter, is more likely to be an independent boss babe and an overachiever more so than the youngest daughter. My sister, she's in a totally different relationship with my parents. And so working herself and going through the hustle and the struggle is just not something that she identifies with. And I think it really does become a part of our identity before we get to think about or choose who we want to be in the outside world and outside of the family dynamic.

SPEAKER_00: 6:05

That's really interesting. And I think so many people, especially in our community, relate really hard, especially if you're a female and in the family where it's either all daughters or like the son is maybe the younger one, then the eldest daughter really have to, I guess, parent everyone in a sense and kind of lose themselves a little bit is the eldest daughter. A lot of that feels like it's a lot of added pressure, responsibility and such, and it mold you to become a person that you are today. Would you say that to a certain extent with that experience kind of form also your personality and be more introverted?

SPEAKER_01: 6:40

Yeah, I think introverted, you know, people have a lot of slightly different definitions of it. But the one I go by on the introversion, extroversion spectrum is really how you recharge and where you get your energy most easily, right? And so for introverts, like really solid, good time alone to nourish yourself is what works. For extroverts, then it's really being around other people. They get energy from other people. And I have always felt like I get more energy by myself, but I do think some of it is like when I'm by myself, I just have this sense of relief that I don't have to take care of anyone. And that layer really comes from being the eldest daughter and an older sister.

SPEAKER_00: 7:28

Wow. That last piece, I relate to as well, just because of how I feel in terms of my own family dynamic of like, If you're being alone, then you don't have to worry about like, Oh, what you have to take care of for at home and all that stuff. I don't know. Maybe that's the kind of the reason why I kind of chose all along my life to kind of, if I have a choice, I live away from home from like going to school, like three hours away to internships that are like across the country to also like moving across the world to teach English at a certain point in my life. And now I'm like living in Asia permanently. So. I feel like maybe that's a part of me where as a result of like feeling like the burden of being the eldest, having to know with those responsibility. And also the fact that I feel myself as an introverted person too. So what you've been doing with your Instagram and also your coaching and stuff really speaks to me because you talk about being introverted, but you're comfortable with that. You're okay with that. You're proud of that. You're saying that I am introverted and that's fine. And I'm gonna live in a way where I still live my dream life and that I'm going to do everything that I still want, but in my own matter versus the kind of the, I guess, traditional way of thinking of you being an introverted person is that because we're living in such an extroverted world, you got to fake it to make it. You got to fake that you're extroverted. You're faking it that you can be in public, talk to all the people. And so at least that's how I prescribe myself for most of my life where I try, Like I know myself deep down from very young age, I'm introverted. I prefer to be alone. That's how I get my most energy. I'm not the exact, the bravest, or I feel shy. I don't like talking to people that much in that sense. But I had grown up where it's like, I know if you want to get the better grades, you want to get the better job opportunity, you have to prove yourself. You've got to be extroverted to be able to tell people that you know what you're doing or you know how to do stuff. So at least how I live my life for the most part is just push yourself to be out of that comfort zone. But for you in terms of how you see it, it seems like you're defying your comfort zone and try to make it bigger rather than jump out of it, which I think is really cool. And I wish I learned that a lot earlier in my life. So can you just talk about like your kind of vision of being introverted, but still able to live your dream life and how that leads to your kind of coaching and your your content and such.

SPEAKER_01: 9:53

Yeah, well, as you were speaking, you actually reminded me of a story that my parents always tell. They were really worried about me as a kid because I was able to play by myself and I would like, they would call it talking to the wall, but maybe it was just talking to myself. Imagine a friend, I don't know. And so they decided they needed to have another kid so that I wouldn't be lonely. And I think every time they told that story, I always knew that I wasn't lonely and that I was okay. And did I have fun with my sister and then later on my baby sister too? Yeah. But I think thankfully, because they told stories that just showed me who I am and reflected that to me, I was able to stay connected to this part of myself. I'm actually introverted too. And I'm like, well, doesn't it take up more energy for you to pretend to be an extrovert rather than just straight up say I'm introverted? Not like as an excuse in case like you're too quiet or you don't have anything to say, but like this is how I am in the world. And that part came more naturally to me. There have been times when I've also felt like I had to pretend to be more extroverted, but knowing that this is my own truth, I don't see the point in trying to change that. Because when I accept it, I can be more efficient with my energy. And so that's made really extroverted things like making friends or networking much easier for me because I don't pressure myself to need to have like the social energy or the social stamina of an extrovert.

SPEAKER_00: 11:44

How long did it take you to get to this point or recognize that this is the better, more efficient way to live or that you never have that kind of, well, I got to fake it to make it kind of fake extroverted energy?

SPEAKER_01: 11:56

Did I have points where I felt like I had to fake it till I made it? Yeah, there have been times when I've lost touch with it. Now it's definitely more of an intentional effort, especially because it's also my personal brand. But I didn't know the word introvert, extrovert until I was probably like 20. I had read a book called Quiet and I forget the name of the author, but I know many other introverts read this and they feel so seen. So 20, I'm at UC Berkeley trying to figure out what I want to do with my life. I have to graduate on time because I can't get more student debt. And so I'm feeling all that pressure and I'm watching extroverted people like make real really good connections. And I started to feel like that's the path I have to take too. But then I had no idea what I wanted to do. So I was trying to figure things out. And at that time, I couldn't discern yet what kind of people would actually be good mentors for me either. There was a part of me that sought out Asian professors. So I did a Korean minor. And so I felt like more affinity to the Korean professors. So I would seek them out and talk to them about how they came to be professors and so on. Along the way, really, I did find my own way of talking to more people. It wasn't at those alumni events where like you're mingling around. It was in me seeking out one-on-one conversations.

SPEAKER_00: 13:25

Is there like a time where you really felt like you are out of your comfort zone having to do things that you know that will further whatever you want to accomplish in a sense where, you know, like I'm introverted, but I'm forced to do this something that's out of my comfort zone that's very extroverted in nature that you you thought i still need to do it before you recognize the switch of where like i can make my own boundaries do things on my own term but still accomplish what i want to accomplish is there a moment like that

SPEAKER_01: 13:56

i think so corporate career wise so i also work a nine to five i'm a digital marketer in the non-profit space and i didn't always know i was gonna go into marketing but i remember as my career got to about the five, seven year mark, I really, really wanted to try out people management. But even though I had these really good relationships with my team members and whatnot, the people who worked above me, they just didn't see me as a leader because I wasn't the kind of leader that they were. And so this made me really upset. And to this day, I've never worked in a role where I manage people. And one of the skills I'd and coach on is self-leadership because I found some other way to express my style of leadership even if I wasn't going to do it in a corporate setting. But in terms of corporate, I don't know if I should have faked it till I made it. I think back to a couple jobs ago. If I got buddy-buddy with the CEO, if I started going to happy hours after work, would that have bettered my career? I don't know. But ultimately, I did leave. And now I'm working a fully remote role with a really chill team that gives me all the energy to do whatever I want when I'm not working the job. Yeah. And I think many of us resonate to or can relate to how do I appear as a leader. And I think I have other things against me too, not just being an introvert, but also being an Asian woman. There are more reasons for for them to look at me and be like, she's not leadership material. And I also wonder if I was too open about being an introvert at times. But at the end of the day, as hurtful as those times were, at night, I can sleep peacefully knowing that I did something that stood up for who I am, even if it's not like a bold, oh, I'm going to quit if you don't let me become a leader or having to force myself to do things that I didn't want to spend my time doing.

SPEAKER_00: 16:08

So you're a You're saying that being too open about introverted can be a negative in your experience and to whether or not are we ready for introverted leaders? Is that a conversation we should have or it shouldn't be where it doesn't matter whether you're introverted or not? Because I think there's a disconnect over like only extroverted people are good leaders, which I don't believe.

SPEAKER_01: 16:32

I think Asians have to realize if we're really good at putting our head down and doing the work, sometimes people also want to keep us there because that's convenient for them. But like bringing this back to should introverts be leaders, should that be something that assesses a good leader? I don't necessarily think so because a leader is going to be someone who, in my opinion, understands their strengths and weaknesses and are going to lead people who can fill the gaps. They're going to find people to build a team. to work towards the goal and a group is going to be able to just bring more to the table, especially in a corporate setting, if we're talking about strengths and weaknesses and being able to fill gaps. There's a book called Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? And so I think this we talk a lot about how we need representation as Asians, but representation overall needs to be more diverse. So I think just based on history, like there's a lot of male leaders, specifically white male leaders. And based on that alone, they can get into positions of leadership. And so I think to assess who makes a good leader or not, we need to dig a lot deeper because we haven't, not we as the collective haven't really. So for anyone who is not a white leader, man, the bar for leadership is so much higher. You just have to be basically perfect by whatever the the standard is by dominant society to be able to be considered a leader. But if we were going to hold the bar up for most people in leadership positions now, would they actually make it? Would they actually meet those standards? Because I think the problem that we see in leadership is that the bar is really low for the dominant group in society.

SPEAKER_00: 18:30

Yeah, very well said. But I'm more interested in kind of you figuring out your way as an introvert to live the life that you want and there are some principles that you live by and work that you put in to get to where you're at a happy space for you to be an introvert that can do things your own way with boundaries and be happy about it and which leads to kind of you branching off into your after nine to five career which is being a life coach and helping others that feel introverted as well to kind of find their own voice find their own space and kind of do lead their own way to feel better about themselves. Before we get to more of those principles and whatnot and your business, can we just talk about how you got into that in the first place?

SPEAKER_01: 19:14

Yeah. So I remember being like 16 years old and like really interested in life coaching. And when I looked into it, it's just like all these white women. I was like, oh, maybe that's not the place for me. And then it came up again when I was in my first job out of college. I'm like, huh, what would my backup career be? It either be like stunt driving or life coaching. coach. But at the time then, I had learned a bit more, but I was stuck in this place where I need to save up money to open up a brick and mortar office to do that. And I also... Felt like I looked too young for people to come to me for advice and guidance. And so I put that off for a while longer. And then the pandemic hit all of us. And this social media app called Clubhouse came into play. And I went on there and I actually met a bunch of coaches who are based in Asia. And I was like, wait. they're doing this online. I'm meeting them online and they're able to run coaching business online. And I think online coaching itself had a really big chapter, a big spotlight on the industry during, you know, between 2020 till now. And that's when the seed was planted in or the seed that was planted in my head when I was in my teenage years started to sprout. And I was like, oh, okay, all these people can do it. I can start this too. But even then, that was December 2021, where I was like, oh, I can do this. It still took me six months just to be able to call myself a coach.

SPEAKER_00: 20:54

Wow. So- It's due to the pandemic and due to the power of being online that led to you doing your coaching business. And you've been doing it for a while now. I want to talk about that journey in terms of the highs and the lows, because opening up your own business is hard. Doing it yourself is even harder. So can you just talk about your journey being an entrepreneur?

SPEAKER_01: 21:16

So when I was first considering starting an online business, the most prominent conversation online or how everyone was selling their or business coaching was like, you'll be able to quit your nine to five and go all in on this. Or you need to quit your nine to five to go all in on this. And that story is like really enticing, especially during the pandemic when many employers were just mistreating people or like trying to exert more power and control when there was absolutely no certainty for anybody anywhere. And for me, I started to buy into that a little bit. And I think that was like the hardest point for me. But like after really assessing, like I like security. And so it's like, again, like You know, if this is something I accept about me, how do I want to work with it instead of just trying to force myself to change extremely dramatically? And what the pandemic afforded me was a lot of extra time. I didn't have to commute to work. I literally couldn't even see my parents because we're of different bubbles and households. And so I found myself with all of this extra time. And so... I was like, okay, there's no shame in starting a side hustle. And so what I didn't realize though, is whether you're a side hustler or a full-time entrepreneur, you get hit with all the same mind drama and all the same like, oh, can I really do this? And I would say like, Especially if you don't start out your career as an entrepreneur, what you get used to is having a regular paycheck. And when your business isn't regularly producing income, when you aren't closing clients, that's a really tough time. I think that was the hardest lesson that sometimes I still have to learn. I just won't have clients anymore. And it's what I do in those moments that probably matters even more than when I do have clients. Because when I'm working with active clients, obviously I'm a coach. But the moment I offboard my clients and I don't have any in the moment, it's like, if I don't have clients, am I still a coach? And I think that's the hardest part of being an entrepreneur is like, am I? You know, the other version of that question is, am I successful if I'm not making money?

SPEAKER_00: 23:43

Did you have any kind of hurdles to overcome? being an entrepreneur, just by the fact that you're more introverted in nature. Because again, being an entrepreneur, you have to really go out and put in the work and to literally, I feel in a sense, just looking out to other entrepreneurs you have to put your whole body your whole face out front and center to get people to notice to get people to buy in whatever that you're trying to have them buy into so did that conflict with you being introverted

SPEAKER_01: 24:16

i definitely still have that struggle but first like when i was starting out here's the beauty of an online business like when i do Instagram stories and it's talking head video, it's still just me sitting at this desk by myself. So I don't have an audience exactly to look at, to make me sweat, to make me like hold my breath and get really scared. So I find that a lot easier than like, even right now, I feel way more nervous than if I were recording by myself. Um, And so I think at the very start, it wasn't as much of a fear. And then what was a good lesson and a fun lesson to learn is that you can actually make money without having a ton of followers too. But now I'm at the point where, you know, I'm almost at four years and I'm really, really getting to know what I like talking about. And I also have things that I want to be known for. And as I think about increasing my visibility, that is honestly extremely scary. Even as As an introvert, I've always had an affinity to public speaking. And I think it's like after being in so many rooms where I felt like I was talked over or I was interrupted or I would say something and nobody would even hear me, taking the stage is exciting because you have a captive audience. And so it makes me feel powerful as an introvert. But now, to have my own business and to want to take stages as Jennifer Ho, the life coach for introverts, introverts, it's now really what do I stand for when I'm on the stage? Because, you know, I'm not just representing a company or representing something else. I'm me. A visibility on a higher scale as just me feels really, really, really scary. And I'm not sure if If I will be able to get over that fear, but I'm going to do my best to manage that fear because I do want to realize this dream. I want to stand on a stage and say, hi, I'm an introvert and I feel powerful up here, but I'm also really freaking scared. I think there are people who would be happy to hear that. And I am a bit scared of the people who'd be like, What is she doing up there? But for the people who need to hear that, I'm going to learn how to manage this fear.

SPEAKER_00: 26:41

And it's also about picking and choosing where you want to be in terms of spaces that welcomes you and also spaces that you know you're confident in enough where if you aren't feeling the greatest, you still can execute and work that floor, so to speak. And I think for a lot of people that are in those positions, learning from you as you being them, their coach, I think there are so many lessons that can be learned to get you to at least closer to what you want. So I want to talk about like kind of the main lessons that you're trying to instill onto your I guess, clients or those that are looking for more guidance, what would you say is something that they can expect that they could potentially have in terms of a realization or lessons that they will learn?

SPEAKER_01: 27:30

Yeah, so I say that my coaching focus on self-leadership and what that really means is helping you live life for yourself. You know, it doesn't matter if you only feel like you're... It doesn't really matter if you feel like you're 60% introverted or 90% introverted. It's figuring out how we're going to work with that and what energy you do have to pursue. and what energy you do have to pursue your passions. I think the first thing we actually work on is, I'm going to put it the way that my client said. She said I was like KonMari in her head because she was really overwhelmed and logically she knew like, okay, these are actions I should take, but I don't know because this, because that, and what she said I helped her with is declutter her mind and figure out what she actually wanted to keep in there. So the first thing we do, if you were to work with me, is that we clear out all the shit that's in your brain so that you figure out what is actually your-

SPEAKER_00: 28:29

That's really good because I was thinking like, I think a really good coach is someone who are able to talk with you, have that connection first and foremost, and then help you kind of untie those knots that you may have that are stopping you from getting to the juice or the meat of what you want to do or your voice, like you mentioned. And I think that's really powerful. And in terms of your experience now, after being four years as a coach, what has been something that been really interesting takeaway you got from just helping others that you now can apply to yourself too?

SPEAKER_01: 29:02

So one of the things that... One of the things... How do I put this? Okay. When I first started, I had this voice in my head that said I couldn't be a coach because I didn't have enough expertise on anything specific, which is one how I landed on life coach because I was like, well, I'm not going to be a business coach or I'm not going to be a career coach. Well, life coach it is. Let's stick with that and roll with it and see what happens. But as I worked with my clients and the more I coached and me, Landing on this focus of helping people live life for themselves is that I actually don't have to have all the answers. It's about if I can help others uncover the answers that are right for them.

SPEAKER_00: 29:49

That's a really good way to think of it and kind of approach life as a whole, I think. You don't need to have all the answers. You can just work with what you got. And yeah, I think I'm at a certain point where life coaching or just coaching for like this whole content podcasting space is something that I'm kind of interested in. just to get an outside perspective or an audit from someone else where you can know where you're at and how you can approach it where you can get to the next level if you want to go to the next level because right now i feel like i'm not blocked but it's nice to have more clarity and talking to you talking to other people really helped me realize you know um this could be a potential thing i could look into further and i think other people can benefit from that as well themselves. And we talk a lot about you being an introvert, you being an entrepreneur, being a life coach. The other aspect now is because of the fact that you want to build a business where you're the life coach, your personal branding has to be forefront being there for people to be attracted, to kind of look for you, book that discovery call and whatnot. And a big part now is to become a content creator highlighting yourself. How have it been for you, especially being an introvert where public speaking you're okay with, but at the same time putting yourself out there, that's the harder hurdle as an introvert. I'm struggling with that right now as I want to be more out there in terms of personal branding, creating content more about my life and such, but I'm still trying to figure out how to do it authentically and also the way where I still show myself to people in the best way. that people are interested, but I still have enough for myself. Like, how do you deal with that? Cause I'm aware, I'm sure that you have this, probably have the same kind of questions as well. but you seem to be able to do it in your own way so well that I could feel like, you say you're introverted, but I could feel like even though you're that, you're still able to perform in a way where I could see you as a content creator.

SPEAKER_01: 31:45

So for the longest time, I was super against calling myself a content creator. It felt like just like an extra job, even though like I would create content, obviously, and I publish it online. But what was going on in my head then is like, oh, I need to like have this signature style. I have to like be hyper production or like if I want to make it as a content creator I have to get paid partnerships but like by the most simplistic form of the definition I create content and I put it online and you've done that as well with this podcast so I try to ground into that thought like I'm already doing it and really remind myself okay well if I'm already doing it and I'm also Like, I'm also someone who likes to get better at the things that I do. Can it be that simple? Can I let it be that simple? And then the other side of it is like content creator also gets lumped in with influencer public figure. And I used to feel like to be authentic, you had to like share everything about yourself. I think is really important as someone who chooses to share anything about themselves publicly that you come to terms with yourself, what you're actually comfortable with sharing. You know, authenticity, I think also goes hand in hand with vulnerability. And what I learned always tell my friends or my clients or anyone who comes to me asking about how do I show up in an authentic, vulnerable way is if it feels vulnerable for you, then it's vulnerable. It doesn't matter if other people think it's vulnerable enough or not. You're feeling it. It's your truth, your reality, and the right people are going to sense that.

SPEAKER_00: 33:29

Something for me to think a lot about as I want to branch off to doing more content more about myself and more personal stories. It's just getting over that hurdle of being introverted. I don't normally share myself that much in public setting as well. It's more of me and actually my podcasting space where I ask the question rather than people asking the question or learning more about me. So I'm more comfortable in this way, but I want to branch out to be able to share my own truth, my own stories and such. So I'm getting so much from just what you're saying and also the content you put out. Because you, for me, is kind of someone that I look to when I be like, how do I become someone that's introverted, but still able to show my story, my perspective in a way where I don't feel like it's too much or I'm giving myself away too much. Because I think that's kind of what I've been struggling with because I don't like that part or I need to learn to be more okay with it to a certain extent. But that being said, being a content creator, I think suits you quite well because you're trying to get better at it. I think that's what's important. as a content creator. And also the content you're putting out is very relatable and also very kind of educational in the sense. But that being said, a part of your content is also travel content because you travel a lot too.

SPEAKER_01: 34:47

Yes, I do.

SPEAKER_00: 34:48

And it's nice to see the places that you go, the things that you do and your reflections on it because I think there's always a lesson there regardless of what places you go. And I want to get to that in terms of knowing more about what would be your top five travel destination then now that you've gone into many places because of the fact that of your job and also kind of content creating.

SPEAKER_01: 35:11

Yeah. So most of my travel is actually for leisure. I saw this question on the notes and I was like, I'm going to be stumped if Kyle asked me this live. But the place I return to the most times is Japan. And I don't think I can get enough of it. Part of it is like my favorite cuisine is japanese food outside of vietnamese food it's just like everything's so easy to work eat it just feels my body feels like really happy eating japanese food and i also feel like i get enough vegetables in because like besides vietnam and japan i feel like anywhere else i go like i forget to eat vegetables because it's not as um fun to

SPEAKER_00: 35:52

eat

SPEAKER_01: 35:53

well i love to eat them but it's just like Yeah, how it's prepared is not tasty or it's not that fresh or the menu is just focused on some other dish. So yeah. So I quite like Japan. One of the things I'm stretching myself to do is to become more physically fit because I forget the name, but I know there's some islands in Japan that are connected by bridges and you can cycle from one end to the other and back if you'd like to as well. And I just think the views would be impeccable. Yeah. Besides that, I also find myself, I have an affinity to Singapore mostly because I made a lot of online friends who are based in Singapore, especially through Clubhouse and the beginning of my coaching journey. And so in the past few years, I've been there twice. I'm headed there again this December. And if I could pluck Singapore and put it into a Mediterranean climate, I think it would be my ideal place to live because I feel so safe there. And I think feeling safe, especially when you're not by yourself and in public as an introvert is a really big thing. And in Singapore, I just feel like I don't have to have my guard up all the time. Yeah, something just very safe and easy to navigate. I

SPEAKER_00: 37:17

said top five, but let's just end up with one more.

SPEAKER_01: 37:20

Okay, one more. Vancouver, Canada. Because it is literally an introvert foodie's dream. The food is so good there. There's so much good food there.

SPEAKER_00: 37:30

No, I mean, you said introvert. It's like, what makes it...

SPEAKER_01: 37:34

Okay, what makes it introvert? So, okay. So I was visiting a friend and we went to happy hour at like 4 p.m. And we're walking into this hotel bar and we see this private event being set up. And we're like, oh, what is that? Can we get in? And we end up sneaking in and just acting like one of the guests, like we belong there. And it's the funnest time. And it ends promptly at 8 p.m. And there's no after party. In California, if there was an event like that, it wouldn't have even started until seven and there would definitely be an after party. So that's why. So

SPEAKER_00: 38:11

it's how the event is laid out because introverts needed it to be appropriate time for you to go back and recharge that kind of thing. But wow, so Japan, Singapore, and Vancouver, Canada, I think those are really good travel destinations that people can consider. And we're reaching towards the end of our conversation. I learned so much, but I think I left off one question, which I think I want to ask is just based on what you know, your expertise and being an introvert, what kind of one, I guess, quick thing people can do if they're introverted that can like they could do right away that could have a positive impact on their life right away? Is there something that you could think of? on top of your head where you're like, if you do this, that'll automatically make your life a bit better, even by like 0.1% kind of thing as an introvert.

SPEAKER_01: 38:58

Okay. Well, as an introvert, you're likely good at introspection. So I would prompt you to think about when you think about being introverted, where does the feeling of shame come up? And then bring some awareness to that and figure out what you would like to think about being introverted instead of those things. And I think you know, that's actually quite a difficult assignment. But I think if you start there, things might come up that you hadn't really consciously and intentionally thought about before. It could just be like autopilot voices in your head. And it's like, it's really important to nip those voices and shut those voices up so that you the real you like the the person you actually want to be can start telling you about how you want to live and how you actually want to see yourself as an introvert

SPEAKER_00: 39:51

If I'm hearing this, how I'm taking it is more like taking away the distractions from the exercise so that you can get to what you truly want to do or hear or like the voices.

SPEAKER_01: 40:03

So when you start noticing your thoughts, an example of something that might come up is I'm too introverted to start a business. I'm too introverted to start creating content. Dig deeper with yourself. Like where are you getting that from? And is it true? Because oftentimes these things, they repeat in our heads and we assume them as the truth but there are but you know besides like actual scientific facts you get to create your own truth

SPEAKER_00: 40:30

yeah so for those that are introverted that want to get better in terms of them being introverted but still able to accomplish what they want to do slightly better try this exercise perhaps will help you kind of clear your mind and block away the distractions and whatnot and before we end off this podcast one of the reasons that i know of you and what you do is because of a friend that you made in singapore which i'm also connected to which is cheryl and um i told her that i was going to interview you so i asked her to give me kind of what she thought of you as a person so i'm just going to read it and see how you feel about it so in terms of what she said she said for you as jennifer the description would be calming grounding presence you can just be as in yourself fully around you or around Jennifer. She's also firm in your values, beliefs, boundaries, decisions, but still firm and fair. That's what she said about you. And through this conversation with you, I feel those things. So I think she really spot on. But do you agree with her assessment of yourself in terms of how she sees you? Is that what you see? kind of hope people can see of you as a person or what you put out there?

SPEAKER_01: 41:44

Yes. Yeah. I feel like she reaffirmed how I see myself and how I try to present myself to others as well.

SPEAKER_00: 41:52

It's so great that you're able to put out what you want to put out as yourself and people taking it and saying that this is how I see you. Because sometimes what you put out doesn't mean that they will see it the same way, whether for better or for worse. So I think you're doing a really good job with personal branding and all that stuff and just being the most authentic you. So high five for that. I think it's really hard to do that. At least I feel so. But she also has some questions she gave me that I could ask you. So I'm just going to ask a couple. one more thing she says that you create safety for others to be themselves so i think that's also very important too and um the first question she said or she she told me to ask is what is your least favorite quality or characteristic she that you have of yourself

SPEAKER_01: 42:39

so I name certain voices in my head and there's one that I call the mothership because I have to separate it from my actual mom. And that's something I learned that I needed to do in order to have a better relationship with my mom. But right now, as you asked me that, the mothership is saying that I'm ugly. And yeah, and I feel like that's like an Asian mom thing to tell you the opposite of what you are so your ego doesn't blow up. But this is not actually the worst quality I... think I have, this is what first appears in my brain. I

SPEAKER_00: 43:11

think- But negative self-talk, is it like-

SPEAKER_01: 43:13

I think that's too common of an answer for this, right? Because everybody has negative self-talk in varying degrees. I think anybody who is a good person actually has negative self-talk because I think evil, bad people, I wish they had some of that to knock down some of their confidence. Yeah, but my- Yeah, what an interesting question because, yeah, I can be, I've worked a lot on this, but I can actually get really angry. You know, you read all these great things that Cheryl said about me, but I think she also knows and most people I meet and get to know over a longer period of time will also know that they never want to see Jennifer angry. How come? Well, to most people, it's unfathomable. And to me, I don't, like feeling like I don't have control. And when if someone were to like really, really, really piss me off, I just don't know if I would have the capacity to be a good person anymore.

SPEAKER_00: 44:17

I feel the exact same way about myself. Like I always say like people haven't seen me angry, but I don't want that to ever happen. Like I try to not have anger as an emotion that I do have. Of course, that's not healthy at all as well. But that's just how I try to live. I don't let things phase me or make me angry as much as it should make a normal person angry about it. I just try not to. But that's something that I got to work with. But yeah, I like your answer. Yeah, but that's really good. Just because I relate to that for sure too. But another question she asks is, what is something others are in awe at? Bayou? but you feel insecure about?

SPEAKER_01: 44:57

Dang, Cheryl always has the hard hitting questions. I don't know if I should admit this, but like, I mean, Cheryl's told me this before. She's in awe of like, you know, if I have different personas, she's in awe of how I make friends really easily. And I feel insecure about that. And I feel insecure talking about it now because it's something that I coach clients on. But for a long time, like I would look at all the people around me and I would say, I don't feel like I have friends. And so when someone tells me that they think I'm so good at that, I think the first thing I'm reminded of is like feeling I don't have friends. And so I get insecure about it.

SPEAKER_00: 45:38

Okay, I can see that. And all this conversation that just makes me think of like one more question is just more like, with all that you have said, obviously you worked on yourself a lot and you put in a lot of effort into living the life that you want. Do you still feel like there are things that you want to work more on specifically to get better for whatever thing it may be? Is there one or two things? And do you feel like you still not having everything together is something that you feel secure enough about in terms of being able to coach others? Because sometimes you feel like as a coach, you're supposed to know everything or know you got everything together in your life. But what's your perspective on that?

SPEAKER_01: 46:17

This is a two-parter question, right? So the latter part, like my perspective on if I'm qualified to coach people, what I've learned is that I can feel really, really, really crappy. I can wake up on the wrong side of the bed one day. The moment I sit my butt down in this chair and get on the Zoom call with my client, my coach mode turns on. And to be able to notice that shift and know that I can do that has helped a lot because I can spend all my time being human, Jennifer, moping or feeling bad, but at the end of the day, I know I can still deliver. to my clients and sometimes it takes the client popping up on zoom sitting right in front of me for that mode to turn on

SPEAKER_00: 47:06

so with that said i was wondering what do we have in the pipeline that you know you can talk about that some big project of yours that you may have

SPEAKER_01: 47:14

yeah so the first thing i'm gonna do is i'm actually gonna revamp my podcast um I gave myself like no rules just so that I would start and I hit the 30th episode recently and I'm like okay I think it's time to get more strategic with this and dig into like okay my most adamant most loyal listeners like what really drew them in and then focus more on that what I did discover this year was that so I started out by scripting a lot which by the way when you said that this podcast is unscripted and conversational I felt like relieved, but also like, no, what have I blanked out? But it has been a really fun process to just see what comes up. And it has been a really fun process to see what comes up. And I'm trying to figure out what is the balance between how much I plan for my podcast content and how much is just what's real and relevant and coming up for me in the moment. Yeah. So I... There's the first thing I'm going to change is the podcast. And basically, as a solopreneur and a side hustler, I have to manage my time really well. So the podcast content is going to then influence what the short form content looks like. It might not necessarily be like editing a clip straight from the podcast, but like, you know, if I were to sum up an episode in like three main ideas, how would I make three reels about it? Something like that. So I'm going to start to test out some systems so that I can get better at showing up regularly.

SPEAKER_00: 48:46

That's awesome. And for the listeners who are interested in more of your story, your kind of content, and also maybe potentially look to a life coach, where can they find you and your links and such?

SPEAKER_01: 48:58

Yeah. So the best place to find everything is at byjenniferho.com. That's B-Y-J-E-N-N-I-F-E-R-H-O.com. And my Instagram handle is also byjenniferho. If you DM me there, I'll promise I'll reply back within 48 hours. And if you want to check out my past... And if you want to check out my podcast, it is called Ask an Introvert. And you can find that on my website as well.

SPEAKER_00: 49:27

And she will definitely reply you because I DM'd her and she replied really quick. So don't worry if you need her to answer a question or you just want to chat, she's there for you. And on that note, thank you so much for listening, everyone. And another episode of What Kind of Asian Are You podcast is done. Hope you come back next time for more conversations about being Asian. Till next time. Bye-bye.